My White Coat Doesn't Fit

Jun 28, 2022

“My White Coat Doesn’t Fit” by Narjust Florez (Duma): a medical oncologist shares her story about exclusion, depression and finding her way in oncology as a Latina in medicine and oncology.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Narrator: My White Coat Doesn’t Fit, by Narjust Duma, MD (10.1200/JCO.21.02601)
There I was, crying once again all the way from the hospital’s parking lot to my apartment, into the shower, and while trying to fall asleep. This had become the norm during my internal medicine residency. For years, I tried hard every day to be someone else in order to fit in. It started with off-hand comments like “Look at her red shoes,” “You are so colorful,” and “You are so Latina.” These later escalated to being interrupted during presentations with comments about my accent, being told that my medical school training in my home country was inferior to my US colleagues, and being assigned all Spanish-speaking patients because “They are your people.” Some of those comments and interactions were unintentionally harmful but led to feelings of isolation, and over time, I began to feel like an outsider.
I came to the United States with the dream of becoming a physician investigator, leaving behind family, friends, and everything I knew. Over time, I felt pigeonholed into a constricting stereotype due to my ethnicity and accent. Back home, I was one of many, but in this new setting, I was one of a few, and in many instances, I was the only Latina in the room.
I was raised by divorced physician parents in Venezuela; my childhood years were often spent in the clinic waiting for my mother to see that one last patient or outside the operating room waiting for my father to take me home. The hospital felt like my second home, growing up snacking on Graham crackers and drinking the infamous hospital’s 1% orange juice. “She was raised in a hospital,” my mother used to say. Sadly, that feeling of being at home in the hospital changed during medical training as I felt isolated and like I did not belong, making me question my dream and the decision to come to the United States. I remember calling my family and crying as I asked “Why did I leave?” “Why didn’t you stop me from coming here?” and seeking permission to return home. I felt like I was disappointing them as I was no longer the vivid, confident young woman who left her home country to pursue a bright future.
I remember one colleague, Valerie (pseudonym), from Connecticut. Valerie attended medical school in the United States, did not have an accent, and was familiar with the American health care system. She understood how the senior resident-intern relationship functioned, a hierarchy that continually confused me. Over the following weeks, I took a closer look at how my colleagues and other hospital staff interacted with Valerie. I noticed that people did not comment about her clothing or personality. She was “normal” and fit in. I remember my senior resident asking me, “Narjust, why can’t you be more like Valerie?” Ashamed, I mumbled that I would try and then ran to the bathroom to cry alone. That interaction was a turning point for me; I got the message. I needed to change; I needed to stop being who I was to be accepted.
As the years passed, I kept key pieces of my personality hidden, hoping I could earn the respect of my colleagues. I refrained from sharing my personal stories as they were different from those around me. I grew up in a developing country with a struggling economy and an even more challenging political situation. It was clear that we simply did not share similar experiences.
When I sought help from my senior residents and attending physicians, my feelings were often minimized or invalidated. I was told that “residency is tough” and that I should “man up.” A few even suggested that I mold my personality to fit the box of what a resident physician was supposed to be. I slowly realized that my clothing changed from reds and pinks to greys and blacks because it was “more professional”; my outward appearance faded, as did my once bright sense of humor and affability.
All these issues led to depression and an overwhelming sense of not belonging. A few months later, I was on antidepressants, but the crying in the shower continued. Rotation by rotation, I looked for a specialty that would help me feel like I belonged, and I found that in oncology. My mentor embraced my research ideas; my ethnic background or accent did not matter; we had the same goal, improving the care of our patients with cancer. I got to travel to national and international conferences, presented my research findings, and received a few awards along the way. From the outside, it looked like I was thriving; my mentor often called me a “Rising Star,” but in reality, I was still deeply depressed and trying to fit in every day. My career successes led me to believe that not being myself was the right thing to do. I felt isolated; I was trying to be someone I was not.
A year later, I matched at my top choice oncology fellowship program; the program had the balance I was
looking for between clinical care and research. This meant that I needed to move to the Midwest, further away from family, and to an area of the country with less racial and ethnic diversity. After 2 years on antidepressants and the 10 extra pounds that came with it, my white coat did not fit. My white coat felt like a costume that I would put on every day to fulfill the dream of being a doctor. I would often wake up in the middle of the night exhausted and depressed. I had all the responsibilities of a hematology/ oncology trainee and the additional full-time job of trying to fit in every day; I was using all my energy trying to be someone I was not.
Regardless of my fears, I felt in my element when talking to patients and interacting with my cofellows. Despite having a different skin color and accent, I felt accepted by my patients with cancer. I remember when one of my patients requested to see me while in the emergency room because
“Dr Duma just gets me.” She had been evaluated by the head of the department and attending physicians, but for her, I washer doctor. Tears of happiness accompanied my bus ride to see her; at that moment, I knew I was an oncologist, and oncology was the place I belonged.
The next day, I realized that it was time to be myself: Narjust from Venezuela, a Latina oncologist who was her true self. I searched the bottom of my closet for the last piece of colorful clothing I had saved, a yellow dress. I put on that brightly colored dress for the first time in 5 years and finally felt comfortable being my authentic self; the yellow dress represented freedom and embraced the culture and colors I grew up seeing in my hometown. I finally understood that I brought something special to the table: my unique understanding of the challenges faced by Latinx patients and trainees, my advocacy skills, and my persistence to endure the academic grindstone. Psychotherapy was also an essential part of my recovery; I learned that happiness lived within me as a whole person—hiding my accent, cultural background, and past experiences was also hiding the light and joy inside me.
Along the way, I found colleagues who faced the same challenges and validated that my experiences resulted from an environment that excludes the difference and values homogeneity. This route to self-discovery helped me find my calling to support others in situations similar to mine.3 I learned how to incorporate and celebrate my ethnicity in the world of academic oncology by teaching others the power of cultural humility, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Together with newfound friends and colleagues, I cofounded the #LatinasinMedicine Twitter community for those who face similar burdens during their training and careers. The #LatinasinMedicine community was created to share our stories, embrace our culture, and amplify other Latinas in medicine—to create connections that alleviate the sense of isolation that many of us have experienced and serve as role models to the next generation of Latinas in medicine.
To help drive systemic change, I founded the Duma Laboratory, a research group that focuses on cancer health disparities and discrimination in medical education. Through research, the Duma Laboratory has shown that my experiences are not unique but rather an everyday reality for many international medical graduates and other under-represented groups in medicine. The Duma Laboratory has become a safe environment for many trainees; we seek to change how mentorship works for under-represented groups in oncology, with the hope that the isolation I felt during my training is not something that future physicians will ever have to endure.
After years of depression and self-discovery, my white coat now fits. However, this is not your regular white coat; it has touches of color to embrace my heritage and the ancestors who paved the way for me to be here today. The face of medicine and oncology is changing around the world; young women of color are standing up to demonstrate the strength of our experiences and fuel the change that medical education needs.
For all minority medical students, residents, fellows, and junior faculty, we belong in medicine even during those moments when our identity is tested. Through my journey, I learned that we can and must challenge the status quo. I hope to inspire others to join me in this path of advocating for diversity, equity, and inclusion because the time for change is now. I was finally free the moment I realized I could not be anyone else but myself, a proud Latina in medicine and oncology.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: Welcome to JCO’s Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, which offers a range of educational and scientific content and enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all of the shows including this one at podcast.asco.org.
I'm your host, Lidia Shapira, Associate Editor for Art of Oncology and Professor of Medicine at Stanford. And with me today is Dr. Narjust Duma, Associate Director of the Cancer Care Equity Program and Medical Thoracic Oncologist at Dana Farber and an Assistant Professor at Harvard Medical School. We'll be discussing her Art of Oncology article, ‘My White Coat Doesn't Fit.’
Our guest has a consulting or advisory role with AstraZeneca, Pfizer, NeoGenomics Laboratories, Janssen, Bristol Myers Squibb, Medarax, Merck, and Mirati. Our guest has also participated in a speaker's bureau for MJH Life Sciences.
Narjust, welcome to our podcast.
Dr. Narjust Duma: Thank you for the invitation and for letting us share our story.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: It's lovely to have you. So, let's start with a bit of background. Your essay has so many powerful themes, the story of an immigrant in the US, the story of resilience, the story of aggression and bullying as a recipient of such during training, of overcoming this and finding not only meaning, but really being an advocate for a more inclusive and fair culture in the workplace.
So, let's untangle all of these and start with your family. I was interested in reading that you're named after your two grandmothers, Narcisa and Justa. And this is how your parents, both physicians, Colombian and Dominican, gave you your name, and then you were raised in Venezuela. So, tell us a little bit about your family and the values that were passed on in your family.
Dr. Narjust Duma: Thank you for asking. Having my two grandmothers names is something that my mother put a lot of effort into. She was a surgery resident with very limited time to decide to do that. And I don't have a middle name, which is quite unique in Latin America, most people in Latin America have one or two middle names.
So, my mother did that to assure that I will use her piece of art, which is my first name. But little does she know that my grandmothers were going to be such an important part of my life, not only because they're in my name, but also because I am who I am thanks to them.
So, the first part of my name, Narcisa was my grandma who raised me and she gave me the superpower of reading and disconnecting. So, I’m able to read no matter where I am and how loud it can be and disconnect with the world. So, it is often that my assistants need to knock on my door two or three times so, I don't like being scared because I'm able to travel away. That was also very unique because you will find me in the basketball games from high school or other activities with a book because I was able to block that noise. But it also makes very uncomfortable situations for my friends that find it embarrassing that I will pull a book in the basketball game.
And as I grow, thanks to the influence of my grandmothers, I always have these, how can I say, mixed situation, in which they were very old school grandmothers with old school habits and values, and how I'm able to modify that. My grandma told me that you can be a feminist, but you still take care of your house. You can still, you know, cook.
And that taught me that you don't have to pick a side, there is no one stereotype for one or another. Because as my mother being a single mother and a surgeon, my parents divorced early on, told me, ‘Yes, I can be the doctor but I can also be the person that has more than a career that's able to have hobbies.’ I love cooking, and when I'm stressed, I cook. So, I had a grant deadline a few weeks ago and I cooked so much that there was food for days. So, having the names of my grandmothers is very important because I have their values, but I have modified them to the current times.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: Let me ask a little bit about reading. I often ask the guests of this podcast who have written and therefore I know enjoy reading and writing, what their favorite books are or what is currently on their night table. But I'm going to ask you a second question and that is what languages do you read in?
Dr. Narjust Duma: I prefer to read in Spanish. I found that books in Spanish, even if it's a book that originated in English, have these romantic characteristics. And I often tell my editors, ‘Just take into account that I think in Spanish, and write in English’. Because I grew up with Gabrielle Garcia Marquez, and when he describes a street, that's a page of the little things that he describes.
So, that's how I write and that's how I read in a very romantic, elaborate way. The aspects of realistic imagism, which is my favorite genre in literature, and there are so many Latin American and South American writers that I don't think that I am going to run out. And when I run out, I reread the same books. I have read all of Gabrielle Garcia Marquez's books twice, and Borges, too.
It’s the type of stories that allows you to submerge yourself and you imagine yourself wearing those Victorian dresses in the heat of a Colombian street, as you try to understand if, you know, Love in the Time of Cholera, if they were more in love with being in love or what it was happening in the story. And that just gives me happiness on a Sunday morning.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: That's beautiful. I must confess that reading Borges is not easy. So, I totally admire the fact that you have managed to read all of his work. And I think that you're absolutely right, that magical realism is a genre that is incredibly fresh, and perhaps for the work that we do in oncology, it's a wonderful antidote in a way to some of the realities, the very harsh realities that we deal with on a daily basis.
So, let me ask you a little bit about growing up in Venezuela in the 80s, 90s, early aughts. That must have been difficult. Tell us a little bit about that, and your choice of attending medical school.
Dr. Narjust Duma: So, growing up in Venezuela, with a Colombian mother, it was quite a unique perspective because she was very attached to her Colombian roots. So, a lot of the things that happened in the house were very Colombian, but I was in Venezuela.
So, it was a unique characteristic of being from a country but your family is not from there. So, my parents are not from Venezuela, my grandparents either, and I’m Venezuelan because I was born and raised there. So, that brought a unique perspective, right? The music that I played in my house was Colombian music, not Venezuelan music.
So, my family migrated from Colombia to Venezuela due to the challenges in the early 80s with violence and the Medellin, due to the drug cartels. So, we moved to Venezuela for a better future. And growing up in the first years, Venezuela was in a very good position. Oil was at the highest prices. Economically, the country was doing well.
I remember, in my early years, the dollar and the bolivar had the same price. But then little by little I saw how my country deteriorated, and it was very heartbreaking. From a place where the shells were full of food to a place now when there is no food, and you go to the supermarket, and many of them are close. And now you're only limited to buying certain things. And you used to use your federal ID that has an electronic tracking on how much you can buy because of socialism.
So, you're only allowed to buy two kilograms of rice per month, for example, you're only allowed to buy this number of plantains. So, every time I go home, because Venezuela is always going to be my home, it doesn't matter where I am., I see how my country has lost pieces by pieces, which is quite very hard because I had a very good childhood.
I had a unique childhood because I was raised in hospitals. But I had a childhood in which I will play with my friends across the street. We were not worried about being kidnapped. We were not worried about being robbed.
That's one thing that children in Venezuela cannot do right now. Children of doctors – there's a higher risk of being kidnapped as a kid right now if your father is a doctor or your mother. So, my childhood wasn't like that. When I teach my students or talk to my mentees, I’m often selling my country, and saying that's not what it used to be. That's not where I grew up. But every year I saw how it no longer is where I grew up. That place doesn't exist, and sometimes, Lidia, I feel like my imagination may have to fill it out with more good things. But I think it was a good childhood. It's just that nobody in Venezuela is experiencing what I experienced as a kid.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: So, both parents were doctors and you chose to study medicine, was this just right out of high school?
Dr. Narjust Duma: Even before high school, I found myself very connected to patients. So, since I turned 15, my father would give his secretary a month of vacation because that's the month that we fill in.
So, I was the secretary for a month every summer since I was 15 until I was 20. That early exposure allowed me to like get to know these patients and they know I was the daughter, but I was also the secretary. So, I really cherished that.
Growing up in my household, we're a house of service. So, our love language is acts of service. That's how pretty much my grandmas and my parents were. So, in order to be a physician, that's the ultimate act of service. I have wanted to be a doctor since I was 11. I think my mother face horrible gender harassment and sexual harassment as a female in the surgery in the early 80s, that she tried to push me away from medicine. Early on, when I was 11, or 12, being an oil engineer in Venezuela was the career that everybody should have, right?
Like, people were going to the Emirates and moving to different parts of the world and were doing wonderful. So, my mother, based on her experience in the 80s, was pushing me away from it. She's like, ‘You can do other things.’ My father always stayed in the back and said, ‘You can do what you want.’
This is how our parents' experiences affect our future. If I wouldn't be this stubborn, I would probably be an oil engineer today, and I wouldn't be talking to you.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: So, you went to medical school, and then after you graduated, what did you decide to do? Because when I look at what we know about the history there is I think you graduated in '09, and then the story that you write about sort of begins in '16 when you come to New Jersey to do training in the US, but what happened between '09 and '16?
Dr. Narjust Duma: I started residency in 2013. '16 was my fellowship. So, going to medical school was one of the hardest decisions I made because right in 2003 and 2004 was a coup in Venezuela where part of the opposition took over the country for three days, and then the President of the time came back and the country really significantly destabilized after that coup.
Most schools were closed. Entire private industries were closed for a month. And I think for some people, it's hard to understand what happened. Everything closed for a month, McDonald's was closed for a month. There was no Coke because a Coke company was not producing. Everything was closed. The country was just paralyzed.
So, my mother and I, and my family, my father, took into account that we didn't know when medical school would resume in Venezuela. We didn't know if the schools would ever open again. I decided to apply for a scholarship and I left Venezuela at the age of 17 to go to the Dominican Republic for medical school.
Very early on, I noticed that I was going to be a foreigner wherever I go because I left home. And since then, I think I became very resilient because I was 17 and I needed to move forward.
So, that is what happened in 2004. I left everything I knew. I left for the Dominican. I do have family in the Dominican, but it was very hard because even if you speak the same language, the cultures are very different. And then I went to medical school in the Dominican and when I was in the Dominican Republic, I realized I really wanted to do science and be an advocate and focus on vulnerable populations with cancer. So, then I made the decision to come to the United States, I did a year of a research fellowship at Fred Hutchinson, and then I went to residency in 2013.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: I see. And that's when you went to New Jersey, far away from home. And as you tell the story, the experience was awful, in part because of the unkindness and aggression, not only microaggression but outright bullying that you experienced.
In reading the essay, my impression was that the bullying was mostly on two accounts. One was gender. The other was the fact that you were different. In this particular case, it was the ethnicity as a Latin or Hispanic woman. Tell us a little bit about that so we can understand that.
Dr. Narjust Duma: I think what happened is that perfect example of intersectionality because we are now the result of one experience, we’re the result of multiple identities. So many woman have faced gender inequalities in medicine, but when you are from a marginalized group, those inequalities multiply.
I have an accent and clearly a different skin color. I grew up in a family in which you were encouraged to be your true self. My grandmothers and my mother said, ‘You never want to be the quiet woman in the corner because the quiet woman never generates change.’ That's what they said, and I bet there are some who do.
But that intersection of my identities was very challenging because I was seen as inferior just for being a woman and then you multiply being one of the few Latinas you are seen like you are less just because you are - it doesn't matter how many degrees or papers or grants you had done and all, I was the most productive research resident in my residency for two years in a row - but I would still be judged by my identity and not what I have produced, or what I do on my patients' experiences, which were great – the feedback from my patients. It's just because I was the different one.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: When I hear your story about your origins, it seems to me that you came from a very capable loving family, and they basically told you to go conquer the world, and you did. And then you arrive and you’re a productive successful resident, and yet, you are marginalized, as you say. People are really aggressive.
Now that you've had some years that have passed, if you think back, what advice would you give that young Narjust?
Dr. Narjust Duma: My number one advice, would be that, I will tell myself is that I belong, in many instances, I feel like I didn't belong. It makes me question all the decisions to that day because when you're doing a presentation, and I still remember like today, and you're interrupted by someone, just for them to make a comment about your accent, it really brings everything down to your core, like, 'Is my presentation not accurate? Is the information not all right? And why am I here? Why did I left everything I love to be treated like this?'
Dr. Lidia Schapira: Of course. So, from New Jersey, you write in your essay that you really discover your passion for cancer research, and you land in a fellowship with a mentor who is encouraging, and things begin to change for you. Can you tell us a little bit about that phase of your training in your life where you slowly begin to find your voice in the state, that also where you crash, where you find yourself so vulnerable that things really fall apart?
Dr. Narjust Duma: So, when I was a resident, I didn't know exactly - I was interested in oncology, but I wasn't sure if it was for me. So, Dr. Martin Gutierrez at Rutgers in Hackensack is the person who I cold emailed and said, ‘I'm interested in studying gastric cancer in Hispanic patients because I think that patients in the clinic are so young.’
He, without knowing me or having any idea, he trusted me. We still meet. He still follows up with me. He encouraged me. I think him being a Latino made the experience better, too, because I didn't have to explain my experience to him. I didn’t have to explain that. He understood because he went through the same things. And he's like, ‘I got you. Let's follow what you want to do.’
He embraced who I was, and how I put who I was into my research. And thanks to Dr. Gutierrez, I’m at the Mayo Clinic as an international medical grad.
So, finding a place in which my ideas were embraced was very important to allow me to stay in medicine because, Lidia, I can tell you several times, I decided to leave. I was very committed to finding something else to do or just being a researcher and leaving clinical medicine behind.
So, when I went to Mayo, I still followed with that mentor, but I already knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to do cancer health disparities. I wanted to do inclusion and diversity. And that allowed me to develop the career I have now and is having that pathway because I, with my strong personality and everything else, faced this discrimination, and I can imagine for other trainees that may still be facing that or will face that in the future. So, I use the negative aspects to find my calling and do many things I have done after that.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: Speaks to your strengths and your determination. Let's talk a little bit about the people who may also feel different but whose differences may not be so apparent. How do you now as an emerging leader, and as a mentor, make sure that you create an inclusive and safe environment for your younger colleagues and your mentees?
Dr. Narjust Duma: One of the things that resulted was the founding of the Duma Lab, which is a research group that focuses on cancer, health disparities, social justice as a general, and inclusion in medical education.
So, one of the things that I practice every day is cultural humility. I continue to read and remember the principles. I have them as the background on my computer at work. The number one principle in lifelong learning is that we learn from everyone and that we don't know everything and other people's cultures, and subculture, we learn their culture is rich.
So, in every meeting, I remind the team of the principles of cultural humility when somebody is joining the lab. I have one-on-one meetings, and I provide information and videos about cultural humility because the lab has been created as an environment that's safe.
We have a WhatsApp group that is now kind of famous - it’s called The Daily Serotonin. The majority of the members of the lab are part of marginalized groups, not only by gender but race, religion, sexual and gender orientation. So, we created this group to share good and bads, and we provide support.
So, a few weeks ago, a patient made reference to one of their lab member’s body, the patient was being examined and that was quite inappropriate. The member debriefed with the group and we all provided insights on how she had responded, and how she should respond in the future.
That's not only learning from the person that brought the scenario but anybody else feels empowered to stop those microaggressions and stop those inappropriate behaviors that woman particularly face during clinical care.
So, cultural humility, and having this WhatsApp group that provides a place where, first, I remind everybody that's confidential, and a place in which anything is shared has been very successful to create inclusivity in the group.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: You have such energy and I'm amazed by all of the things that you can do and how you have used social connection as a way of bringing people up.
So, can you give our listeners perhaps some tips for how you view creating a flatter culture, one with fewer hierarchies that makes it safer for learners and for those who are practicing oncology? What are three quick things that all of us can do in our work starting this afternoon?
Dr. Narjust Duma: The concept is that we all can be allies. And being an ally doesn't take a lot of time or money because people think that being an ally is a full-time job, it is not.
So, the first one tip will be to bring people with you. Your success is not only yours. It’s a success of your mentees. It’s a success of your colleagues. So, don't see your success as my badge on my shoulder. It’s the badge that goes on everyone. So, bring people in, leave the door open, not only bring them but leave the door open because when you do it helps the next generation.
Two, little things make a difference. I'm going to give you three phrases that I use all the time. When you think somebody has been marginalized in a meeting, bring them up, it takes no time. For example, 'Chenoa, what do you think we can do next?' You're bringing that person to the table.
Two, you can advocate for other women and minorities when they're easily interrupted in a meeting. This takes no time. ‘I’m sorry you interrupted Dr. Duma. Dr. Duma?’ So, that helps.
The third thing is very important. You can connect people. So, one of the things is that I don't have every skill, so I advocate for my mentees and I serve as a connector. I have a mentee that is into bioinformatics. Lidia, that's above my head. I don't understand any of that. So, I was able to connect that person to people that do bioinformatics.
And follow up. My last thing is to follow up with your people because they need you.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: Well, I'm very glad that you're not an oil engineer in the Emirates. I'm sure your family is incredibly proud. I hope that you're happy where you are. We started a little bit about where you started, I'd like to end with your idea of where you imagine yourself 10 years from now?
Dr. Narjust Duma: That is a question I don't have an answer prepared for. I guess my career development plans I think I want to be in a place where I look back and I can see that the careers of my mentees being successful. And I think that we measure my success based not on myself, I would measure my success in 10 years based on where my mentees are. And medical education is a more inclusive place. That will be the two things I want to see in 10 years.
In the personal aspect, I don't know if we have art, don't know if we have those grants as long as my mentees are in a better place.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: It has been such a pleasure to have this conversation. Thank you so much, Narjust.
Dr. Narjust Duma: Thank you.
Dr. Lidia Schapira: Until next time, thank you for listening to this JCO’s Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.
While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode of JCO’s Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology podcast. This is just one of many of ASCO’s podcasts. You can find all of the shows at podcast.asco.org.

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.
Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

Narrator: My White Coat Doesn’t Fit, by Narjust Duma, MD (10.1200/JCO.21.02601)

There I was, crying once again all the way from the hospital’s parking lot to my apartment, into the shower, and while trying to fall asleep. This had become the norm during my internal medicine residency. For years, I tried hard every day to be someone else in order to fit in. It started with off-hand comments like “Look at her red shoes,” “You are so colorful,” and “You are so Latina.” These later escalated to being interrupted during presentations with comments about my accent, being told that my medical school training in my home country was inferior to my US colleagues, and being assigned all Spanish-speaking patients because “They are your people.” Some of those comments and interactions were unintentionally harmful but led to feelings of isolation, and over time, I began to feel like an outsider.

I came to the United States with the dream of becoming a physician investigator, leaving behind family, friends, and everything I knew. Over time, I felt pigeonholed into a constricting stereotype due to my ethnicity and accent. Back home, I was one of many, but in this new setting, I was one of a few, and in many instances, I was the only Latina in the room.

I was raised by divorced physician parents in Venezuela; my childhood years were often spent in the clinic waiting for my mother to see that one last patient or outside the operating room waiting for my father to take me home. The hospital felt like my second home, growing up snacking on Graham crackers and drinking the infamous hospital’s 1% orange juice. “She was raised in a hospital,” my mother used to say. Sadly, that feeling of being at home in the hospital changed during medical training as I felt isolated and like I did not belong, making me question my dream and the decision to come to the United States. I remember calling my family and crying as I asked “Why did I leave?” “Why didn’t you stop me from coming here?” and seeking permission to return home. I felt like I was disappointing them as I was no longer the vivid, confident young woman who left her home country to pursue a bright future.

I remember one colleague, Valerie (pseudonym), from Connecticut. Valerie attended medical school in the United States, did not have an accent, and was familiar with the American health care system. She understood how the senior resident-intern relationship functioned, a hierarchy that continually confused me. Over the following weeks, I took a closer look at how my colleagues and other hospital staff interacted with Valerie. I noticed that people did not comment about her clothing or personality. She was “normal” and fit in. I remember my senior resident asking me, “Narjust, why can’t you be more like Valerie?” Ashamed, I mumbled that I would try and then ran to the bathroom to cry alone. That interaction was a turning point for me; I got the message. I needed to change; I needed to stop being who I was to be accepted.

As the years passed, I kept key pieces of my personality hidden, hoping I could earn the respect of my colleagues. I refrained from sharing my personal stories as they were different from those around me. I grew up in a developing  country with a struggling economy and an even more challenging political situation. It was clear that we simply did not share similar experiences.

When I sought help from my senior residents and attending physicians, my feelings were often minimized or invalidated. I was told that “residency is tough” and that I should “man up.” A few even suggested that I mold my personality to fit the box of what a resident physician was supposed to be. I slowly realized that my clothing changed from reds and pinks to greys and blacks because it was “more professional”; my outward appearance faded, as did my once bright sense of humor and affability.

All these issues led to depression and an overwhelming sense of not belonging. A few months later, I was on antidepressants, but the crying in the shower continued. Rotation by rotation, I looked for a specialty that would help me feel like I belonged, and I found that in oncology. My mentor embraced my research ideas; my ethnic background or accent did not matter; we had the same goal, improving the care of our patients with cancer. I got to travel to national and international conferences, presented my research findings, and received a few awards along the way. From the outside, it looked like I was thriving; my mentor often called me a “Rising Star,” but in reality, I was still deeply depressed and trying to fit in every day. My career successes led me to believe that not being myself was the right thing to do. I felt isolated; I was trying to be someone I was not.

A year later, I matched at my top choice oncology fellowship program; the program had the balance I was

looking for between clinical care and research. This meant that I needed to move to the Midwest, further away from family, and to an area of the country with less racial and ethnic diversity. After 2 years on antidepressants and the 10 extra pounds that came with it, my white coat did not fit. My white coat felt like a costume that I would put on every day to fulfill the dream of being a doctor. I would often wake up in the middle of the night exhausted and depressed. I had all the responsibilities of a hematology/ oncology trainee and the additional full-time job of trying to fit in every day; I was using all my energy trying to be someone I was not.

Regardless of my fears, I felt in my element when talking to patients and interacting with my cofellows. Despite having a different skin color and accent, I felt accepted by my patients with cancer. I remember when one of my patients requested to see me while in the emergency room because

“Dr Duma just gets me.” She had been evaluated by the head of the department and attending physicians, but for her, I washer doctor. Tears of happiness accompanied my bus ride to see her; at that moment, I knew I was an oncologist, and oncology was the place I belonged.

The next day, I realized that it was time to be myself: Narjust from Venezuela, a Latina oncologist who was her true self. I searched the bottom of my closet for the last piece of colorful clothing I had saved, a yellow dress. I put on that brightly colored dress for the first time in 5 years and finally felt comfortable being my authentic self; the yellow dress represented freedom and embraced the culture and colors I grew up seeing in my hometown. I finally understood that I brought something special to the table: my unique understanding of the challenges faced by Latinx patients and trainees, my advocacy skills, and my persistence to endure the academic grindstone. Psychotherapy was also an essential part of my recovery; I learned that happiness lived within me as a whole person—hiding my accent, cultural background, and past experiences was also hiding the light and joy inside me.

Along the way, I found colleagues who faced the same challenges and validated that my experiences resulted from an environment that excludes the difference and values homogeneity. This route to self-discovery helped me find my calling to support others in situations similar to mine.3 I learned how to incorporate and celebrate my ethnicity in the world of academic oncology by teaching others the power of cultural humility, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Together with newfound friends and colleagues, I cofounded the #LatinasinMedicine Twitter community for those who face similar burdens during their training and careers. The #LatinasinMedicine community was created to share our stories, embrace our culture, and amplify other Latinas in medicine—to create connections that alleviate the sense of isolation that many of us have experienced and serve as role models to the next generation of Latinas in medicine.

To help drive systemic change, I founded the Duma Laboratory, a research group that focuses on cancer health disparities and discrimination in medical education. Through research, the Duma Laboratory has shown that my experiences are not unique but rather an everyday reality for many international medical graduates and other under-represented groups in medicine. The Duma Laboratory has become a safe environment for many trainees; we seek to change how mentorship works for under-represented groups in oncology, with the hope that the isolation I felt during my training is not something that future physicians will ever have to endure.

After years of depression and self-discovery, my white coat now fits. However, this is not your regular white coat; it has touches of color to embrace my heritage and the ancestors who paved the way for me to be here today. The face of medicine and oncology is changing around the world; young women of color are standing up to demonstrate the strength of our experiences and fuel the change that medical education needs.

For all minority medical students, residents, fellows, and junior faculty, we belong in medicine even during those moments when our identity is tested. Through my journey, I learned that we can and must challenge the status quo. I hope to inspire others to join me in this path of advocating for diversity, equity, and inclusion because the time for change is now. I was finally free the moment I realized I could not be anyone else but myself, a proud Latina in medicine and oncology.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: Welcome to JCO’s Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, which offers a range of educational and scientific content and enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all of the shows including this one at podcast.asco.org.

I'm your host, Lidia Shapira, Associate Editor for Art of Oncology and Professor of Medicine at Stanford. And with me today is Dr. Narjust Duma, Associate Director of the Cancer Care Equity Program and Medical Thoracic Oncologist at Dana Farber and an Assistant Professor at Harvard Medical School. We'll be discussing her Art of Oncology article, ‘My White Coat Doesn't Fit.’

Our guest has a consulting or advisory role with AstraZeneca, Pfizer, NeoGenomics Laboratories, Janssen, Bristol Myers Squibb, Medarax, Merck, and Mirati. Our guest has also participated in a speaker's bureau for MJH Life Sciences.

Narjust, welcome to our podcast.

Dr. Narjust Duma: Thank you for the invitation and for letting us share our story.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: It's lovely to have you. So, let's start with a bit of background. Your essay has so many powerful themes, the story of an immigrant in the US, the story of resilience, the story of aggression and bullying as a recipient of such during training, of overcoming this and finding not only meaning, but really being an advocate for a more inclusive and fair culture in the workplace.

So, let's untangle all of these and start with your family. I was interested in reading that you're named after your two grandmothers, Narcisa and Justa. And this is how your parents, both physicians, Colombian and Dominican, gave you your name, and then you were raised in Venezuela. So, tell us a little bit about your family and the values that were passed on in your family.

Dr. Narjust Duma: Thank you for asking. Having my two grandmothers names is something that my mother put a lot of effort into. She was a surgery resident with very limited time to decide to do that. And I don't have a middle name, which is quite unique in Latin America, most people in Latin America have one or two middle names.

So, my mother did that to assure that I will use her piece of art, which is my first name. But little does she know that my grandmothers were going to be such an important part of my life, not only because they're in my name, but also because I am who I am thanks to them.

So, the first part of my name, Narcisa was my grandma who raised me and she gave me the superpower of reading and disconnecting. So, I’m able to read no matter where I am and how loud it can be and disconnect with the world. So, it is often that my assistants need to knock on my door two or three times so, I don't like being scared because I'm able to travel away. That was also very unique because you will find me in the basketball games from high school or other activities with a book because I was able to block that noise. But it also makes very uncomfortable situations for my friends that find it embarrassing that I will pull a book in the basketball game.

And as I grow, thanks to the influence of my grandmothers, I always have these, how can I say, mixed situation, in which they were very old school grandmothers with old school habits and values, and how I'm able to modify that. My grandma told me that you can be a feminist, but you still take care of your house. You can still, you know, cook.

And that taught me that you don't have to pick a side, there is no one stereotype for one or another. Because as my mother being a single mother and a surgeon, my parents divorced early on, told me, ‘Yes, I can be the doctor but I can also be the person that has more than a career that's able to have hobbies.’ I love cooking, and when I'm stressed, I cook. So, I had a grant deadline a few weeks ago and I cooked so much that there was food for days. So, having the names of my grandmothers is very important because I have their values, but I have modified them to the current times.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: Let me ask a little bit about reading. I often ask the guests of this podcast who have written and therefore I know enjoy reading and writing, what their favorite books are or what is currently on their night table. But I'm going to ask you a second question and that is what languages do you read in?

Dr. Narjust Duma: I prefer to read in Spanish. I found that books in Spanish, even if it's a book that originated in English, have these romantic characteristics. And I often tell my editors, ‘Just take into account that I think in Spanish, and write in English’. Because I grew up with Gabrielle Garcia Marquez, and when he describes a street, that's a page of the little things that he describes.

So, that's how I write and that's how I read in a very romantic, elaborate way. The aspects of realistic imagism, which is my favorite genre in literature, and there are so many Latin American and South American writers that I don't think that I am going to run out. And when I run out, I reread the same books. I have read all of Gabrielle Garcia Marquez's books twice, and Borges, too.

It’s the type of stories that allows you to submerge yourself and you imagine yourself wearing those Victorian dresses in the heat of a Colombian street, as you try to understand if, you know, Love in the Time of Cholera, if they were more in love with being in love or what it was happening in the story. And that just gives me happiness on a Sunday morning.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: That's beautiful. I must confess that reading Borges is not easy. So, I totally admire the fact that you have managed to read all of his work. And I think that you're absolutely right, that magical realism is a genre that is incredibly fresh, and perhaps for the work that we do in oncology, it's a wonderful antidote in a way to some of the realities, the very harsh realities that we deal with on a daily basis.

So, let me ask you a little bit about growing up in Venezuela in the 80s, 90s, early aughts. That must have been difficult. Tell us a little bit about that, and your choice of attending medical school.

Dr. Narjust Duma: So, growing up in Venezuela, with a Colombian mother, it was quite a unique perspective because she was very attached to her Colombian roots. So, a lot of the things that happened in the house were very Colombian, but I was in Venezuela.

So, it was a unique characteristic of being from a country but your family is not from there. So, my parents are not from Venezuela, my grandparents either, and I’m Venezuelan because I was born and raised there. So, that brought a unique perspective, right? The music that I played in my house was Colombian music, not Venezuelan music.

So, my family migrated from Colombia to Venezuela due to the challenges in the early 80s with violence and the Medellin, due to the drug cartels. So, we moved to Venezuela for a better future. And growing up in the first years, Venezuela was in a very good position. Oil was at the highest prices. Economically, the country was doing well.

I remember, in my early years, the dollar and the bolivar had the same price. But then little by little I saw how my country deteriorated, and it was very heartbreaking. From a place where the shells were full of food to a place now when there is no food, and you go to the supermarket, and many of them are close. And now you're only limited to buying certain things. And you used to use your federal ID that has an electronic tracking on how much you can buy because of socialism.

So, you're only allowed to buy two kilograms of rice per month, for example, you're only allowed to buy this number of plantains. So, every time I go home, because Venezuela is always going to be my home, it doesn't matter where I am., I see how my country has lost pieces by pieces, which is quite very hard because I had a very good childhood.

I had a unique childhood because I was raised in hospitals. But I had a childhood in which I will play with my friends across the street. We were not worried about being kidnapped. We were not worried about being robbed.

That's one thing that children in Venezuela cannot do right now. Children of doctors – there's a higher risk of being kidnapped as a kid right now if your father is a doctor or your mother. So, my childhood wasn't like that. When I teach my students or talk to my mentees, I’m often selling my country, and saying that's not what it used to be. That's not where I grew up. But every year I saw how it no longer is where I grew up. That place doesn't exist, and sometimes, Lidia, I feel like my imagination may have to fill it out with more good things. But I think it was a good childhood. It's just that nobody in Venezuela is experiencing what I experienced as a kid.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: So, both parents were doctors and you chose to study medicine, was this just right out of high school?

Dr. Narjust Duma: Even before high school, I found myself very connected to patients. So, since I turned 15, my father would give his secretary a month of vacation because that's the month that we fill in.

So, I was the secretary for a month every summer since I was 15 until I was 20. That early exposure allowed me to like get to know these patients and they know I was the daughter, but I was also the secretary. So, I really cherished that.

Growing up in my household, we're a house of service. So, our love language is acts of service. That's how pretty much my grandmas and my parents were. So, in order to be a physician, that's the ultimate act of service. I have wanted to be a doctor since I was 11. I think my mother face horrible gender harassment and sexual harassment as a female in the surgery in the early 80s, that she tried to push me away from medicine. Early on, when I was 11, or 12, being an oil engineer in Venezuela was the career that everybody should have, right?

Like, people were going to the Emirates and moving to different parts of the world and were doing wonderful. So, my mother, based on her experience in the 80s, was pushing me away from it. She's like, ‘You can do other things.’ My father always stayed in the back and said, ‘You can do what you want.’

This is how our parents' experiences affect our future. If I wouldn't be this stubborn, I would probably be an oil engineer today, and I wouldn't be talking to you.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: So, you went to medical school, and then after you graduated, what did you decide to do? Because when I look at what we know about the history there is I think you graduated in '09, and then the story that you write about sort of begins in '16 when you come to New Jersey to do training in the US, but what happened between '09 and '16?

Dr. Narjust Duma: I started residency in 2013. '16 was my fellowship. So, going to medical school was one of the hardest decisions I made because right in 2003 and 2004 was a coup in Venezuela where part of the opposition took over the country for three days, and then the President of the time came back and the country really significantly destabilized after that coup.

Most schools were closed. Entire private industries were closed for a month. And I think for some people, it's hard to understand what happened. Everything closed for a month, McDonald's was closed for a month. There was no Coke because a Coke company was not producing. Everything was closed. The country was just paralyzed.

So, my mother and I, and my family, my father, took into account that we didn't know when medical school would resume in Venezuela. We didn't know if the schools would ever open again. I decided to apply for a scholarship and I left Venezuela at the age of 17 to go to the Dominican Republic for medical school.

Very early on, I noticed that I was going to be a foreigner wherever I go because I left home. And since then, I think I became very resilient because I was 17 and I needed to move forward.

So, that is what happened in 2004. I left everything I knew. I left for the Dominican. I do have family in the Dominican, but it was very hard because even if you speak the same language, the cultures are very different. And then I went to medical school in the Dominican and when I was in the Dominican Republic, I realized I really wanted to do science and be an advocate and focus on vulnerable populations with cancer. So, then I made the decision to come to the United States, I did a year of a research fellowship at Fred Hutchinson, and then I went to residency in 2013.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: I see. And that's when you went to New Jersey, far away from home. And as you tell the story, the experience was awful, in part because of the unkindness and aggression, not only microaggression but outright bullying that you experienced.

In reading the essay, my impression was that the bullying was mostly on two accounts. One was gender. The other was the fact that you were different. In this particular case, it was the ethnicity as a Latin or Hispanic woman. Tell us a little bit about that so we can understand that.

Dr. Narjust Duma: I think what happened is that perfect example of intersectionality because we are now the result of one experience, we’re the result of multiple identities. So many woman have faced gender inequalities in medicine, but when you are from a marginalized group, those inequalities multiply.

I have an accent and clearly a different skin color. I grew up in a family in which you were encouraged to be your true self. My grandmothers and my mother said, ‘You never want to be the quiet woman in the corner because the quiet woman never generates change.’ That's what they said, and I bet there are some who do.

But that intersection of my identities was very challenging because I was seen as inferior just for being a woman and then you multiply being one of the few Latinas you are seen like you are less just because you are - it doesn't matter how many degrees or papers or grants you had done and all, I was the most productive research resident in my residency for two years in a row - but I would still be judged by my identity and not what I have produced, or what I do on my patients' experiences, which were great – the feedback from my patients. It's just because I was the different one.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: When I hear your story about your origins, it seems to me that you came from a very capable loving family, and they basically told you to go conquer the world, and you did. And then you arrive and you’re a productive successful resident, and yet, you are marginalized, as you say. People are really aggressive.

Now that you've had some years that have passed, if you think back, what advice would you give that young Narjust?

Dr. Narjust Duma: My number one advice, would be that, I will tell myself is that I belong, in many instances, I feel like I didn't belong. It makes me question all the decisions to that day because when you're doing a presentation, and I still remember like today, and you're interrupted by someone, just for them to make a comment about your accent, it really brings everything down to your core, like, 'Is my presentation not accurate? Is the information not all right? And why am I here? Why did I left everything I love to be treated like this?'

Dr. Lidia Schapira: Of course. So, from New Jersey, you write in your essay that you really discover your passion for cancer research, and you land in a fellowship with a mentor who is encouraging, and things begin to change for you. Can you tell us a little bit about that phase of your training in your life where you slowly begin to find your voice in the state, that also where you crash, where you find yourself so vulnerable that things really fall apart?

Dr. Narjust Duma: So, when I was a resident, I didn't know exactly - I was interested in oncology, but I wasn't sure if it was for me. So, Dr. Martin Gutierrez at Rutgers in Hackensack is the person who I cold emailed and said, ‘I'm interested in studying gastric cancer in Hispanic patients because I think that patients in the clinic are so young.’

He, without knowing me or having any idea, he trusted me. We still meet. He still follows up with me. He encouraged me. I think him being a Latino made the experience better, too, because I didn't have to explain my experience to him. I didn’t have to explain that. He understood because he went through the same things. And he's like, ‘I got you. Let's follow what you want to do.’

He embraced who I was, and how I put who I was into my research. And thanks to Dr. Gutierrez, I’m at the Mayo Clinic as an international medical grad.

So, finding a place in which my ideas were embraced was very important to allow me to stay in medicine because, Lidia, I can tell you several times, I decided to leave. I was very committed to finding something else to do or just being a researcher and leaving clinical medicine behind.

So, when I went to Mayo, I still followed with that mentor, but I already knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to do cancer health disparities. I wanted to do inclusion and diversity. And that allowed me to develop the career I have now and is having that pathway because I, with my strong personality and everything else, faced this discrimination, and I can imagine for other trainees that may still be facing that or will face that in the future. So, I use the negative aspects to find my calling and do many things I have done after that.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: Speaks to your strengths and your determination. Let's talk a little bit about the people who may also feel different but whose differences may not be so apparent. How do you now as an emerging leader, and as a mentor, make sure that you create an inclusive and safe environment for your younger colleagues and your mentees?

Dr. Narjust Duma: One of the things that resulted was the founding of the Duma Lab, which is a research group that focuses on cancer, health disparities, social justice as a general, and inclusion in medical education.

So, one of the things that I practice every day is cultural humility. I continue to read and remember the principles. I have them as the background on my computer at work. The number one principle in lifelong learning is that we learn from everyone and that we don't know everything and other people's cultures, and subculture, we learn their culture is rich.

So, in every meeting, I remind the team of the principles of cultural humility when somebody is joining the lab. I have one-on-one meetings, and I provide information and videos about cultural humility because the lab has been created as an environment that's safe.

We have a WhatsApp group that is now kind of famous - it’s called The Daily Serotonin. The majority of the members of the lab are part of marginalized groups, not only by gender but race, religion, sexual and gender orientation. So, we created this group to share good and bads, and we provide support.

So, a few weeks ago, a patient made reference to one of their lab member’s body, the patient was being examined and that was quite inappropriate. The member debriefed with the group and we all provided insights on how she had responded, and how she should respond in the future.

That's not only learning from the person that brought the scenario but anybody else feels empowered to stop those microaggressions and stop those inappropriate behaviors that woman particularly face during clinical care.

So, cultural humility, and having this WhatsApp group that provides a place where, first, I remind everybody that's confidential, and a place in which anything is shared has been very successful to create inclusivity in the group.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: You have such energy and I'm amazed by all of the things that you can do and how you have used social connection as a way of bringing people up.

So, can you give our listeners perhaps some tips for how you view creating a flatter culture, one with fewer hierarchies that makes it safer for learners and for those who are practicing oncology? What are three quick things that all of us can do in our work starting this afternoon?

Dr. Narjust Duma: The concept is that we all can be allies. And being an ally doesn't take a lot of time or money because people think that being an ally is a full-time job, it is not.

So, the first one tip will be to bring people with you. Your success is not only yours. It’s a success of your mentees. It’s a success of your colleagues. So, don't see your success as my badge on my shoulder. It’s the badge that goes on everyone. So, bring people in, leave the door open, not only bring them but leave the door open because when you do it helps the next generation.

Two, little things make a difference. I'm going to give you three phrases that I use all the time. When you think somebody has been marginalized in a meeting, bring them up, it takes no time. For example, 'Chenoa, what do you think we can do next?' You're bringing that person to the table.

Two, you can advocate for other women and minorities when they're easily interrupted in a meeting. This takes no time. ‘I’m sorry you interrupted Dr. Duma. Dr. Duma?’ So, that helps.

The third thing is very important. You can connect people. So, one of the things is that I don't have every skill, so I advocate for my mentees and I serve as a connector. I have a mentee that is into bioinformatics. Lidia, that's above my head. I don't understand any of that. So, I was able to connect that person to people that do bioinformatics.

And follow up. My last thing is to follow up with your people because they need you.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: Well, I'm very glad that you're not an oil engineer in the Emirates. I'm sure your family is incredibly proud. I hope that you're happy where you are. We started a little bit about where you started, I'd like to end with your idea of where you imagine yourself 10 years from now?

Dr. Narjust Duma: That is a question I don't have an answer prepared for. I guess my career development plans I think I want to be in a place where I look back and I can see that the careers of my mentees being successful. And I think that we measure my success based not on myself, I would measure my success in 10 years based on where my mentees are. And medical education is a more inclusive place. That will be the two things I want to see in 10 years.

In the personal aspect, I don't know if we have art, don't know if we have those grants as long as my mentees are in a better place.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: It has been such a pleasure to have this conversation. Thank you so much, Narjust.

Dr. Narjust Duma: Thank you.

Dr. Lidia Schapira: Until next time, thank you for listening to this JCO’s Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode of JCO’s Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology podcast. This is just one of many of ASCO’s podcasts. You can find all of the shows at podcast.asco.org.

 

The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.

Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.